Sir Chris Wormald made his 100th select committee appearance on Tuesday – but his first as cabinet secretary – speaking in front of the Public Administration and Constitutional Affairs Committee.
The cab sec answered questions on subjects including: flexible working; his assessment of the civil service; strained relations between ministers and officials; mission government; silos; and grade hierarchy.
Here are the key takeaways from the session.
Civil servants ‘need to think differently about how they do their jobs’
The session began just an hour after prime minister Keir Starmer announced that the government would increase defence spending to 2.5% of GDP by 2027, and fund this by cutting official development assistance to 0.3% of GNI in the same timeframe.
PACAC chair Simon Hoare suggested this annoucement represented a "gear shift" away from "peace time, and I use that term in inverted commas" and asked Wormald if this shift will have an impact on the way government works.
The cab sec said the key takeaway for him is the need for civil servants to be able to work across boundaries.
Wormald said Starmer’s statement needsto be put in the context of a very different world. He said one of the biggest changes he has found since returning to the Cabinet Office in December, having been head of the Economic and Domestic Affairs Secretariat in the department from 2009-2012, is “just how interrelated now international and domestic issues are”.
He said, in 2009-2012, it was quite easy to tell the difference between a domestic or international question, but that now “almost every domestic or economic meeting has an international context and every international meeting has a domestic consequence”.
“There isn’t a structure you can create that solves the problem,” he added. “You have to have domestic committees, international committees, a foreign office, domestic departments and all those things.
“Therefore it puts a huge capacity on civil servants to be able to work across that boundary and I see it as one of my roles as cabinet secretary to see what I can do to help people do that. There are lots of straight policy implications from what’s been announced – but in terms of ways of working that’s the biggest challenge, because we need people…to be thinking differently about how they do their jobs and thinking across the various silos that we create in policy.”
Flexible working: 60% mandate is here to stay – but department leaders need "huge levels of common sense"
Wormald was then asked if, in this context, there is “some urgent merit” in getting civil servants to go into offices more “so that those new cross-silo relationships can be forged”.
The cab sec said the 60% rule is “about right” but “needs to be applied with a level of common sense, depending on the work that is being done”.
“I think it gives people time face-to-face with their colleagues, which is very important, particularly important for new entrants, and it's obviously very, very important for people who don't have spaces where they can work from home, but also gives some people some flexibility,” he said. “We've got no plans to change that policy.”
Wormald added: “There is a big technology element, however, and of course, Foreign Office is a great example somewhere that manages to run very effective networks spread all over the world, using technology to do so. So, the face-to-face bit is very important but it's not the only thing.”
Hoare asked Wormald if he would keep this “under review” given the “gear shift” in Starmer’s speech.
Wormald responded: “Each department should be thinking about these things all the time. We have a cross-government benchmark which we've got no plans to review. However, there's very much a horses-for-courses part for this. So we are not saying every single department, every single building, you are flat rate doing that thing. Individual permanent secretaries and secretaries of state should be in a constant state of thinking about what next is appropriate for that department in its circumstances. And this is quite a good example of how we need to work. We do need cross-civil service policies for the reasons you will all understand, and then we need huge levels of common sense at departmental level to say, what is the next challenge and how do we meet it?”
Neither 'Blob' nor 'Rolls Royce': Wormald’s nuanced assessment of the civil service
The cab sec was also questioned on differing views of the civil service, from Starmer’s “tepid bath” comments, to descriptions of it as “the blob”or “the Rolls Royce benchmark of civil administration, the envy of the world”, and asked for his assessment of today’s civil service and his priorities as its head.
Wormald first said on Starmer’s remarks that it was important to look at his “entire comments” and that he was “making a wider point about fatalism in public services and a belief that we need to solve the problems that are in front of us and be confident in doing so”.
On his assessment of the civil service, Wormald said he doesn’t believe general catchphrases, including the Rolls Royce one, are helpful.
Wormald said he is “tremendously proud of the civil service and the work that it does” and “even prouder of individual civil servants” who are “almost universally…dedicated, professional people trying to do good in the world, often in very, very difficult circumstances.”
He added that, in any historic institution, “you are in a constant state of wishing to preserve what has made that institution great in the first place, while reforming it for a constantly changing world, and obviously in any area of the public services, where you're effectively a monopoly, it is perfectly right and indeed good that people challenge the status quo”.
“So I would say there are lots and lots of things that are great about the civil service, its values, its way of working, its public service commitments, the great recruits that we get, its levels of dedication,” Wormald said. “And then there are lots of areas where we need to be continuously improving, some of them very challenging,” he added. He mentioned fiscal issues, international affairs, and the impact of changing demographics on public services, adding “and that is before you get some other global challenges such as net zero”.
“So the civil service, in my view, needs to be in a constant state of being proud of what it is and what it does, and in a constant state of being restless about: how does it need to change to meet those external changes?”
Damage to minister-civil servant relations ‘not lasting’, Wormald believes
Wormald was also asked to reflect on the fracture in civil service-minister relations which his predecessor Simon Case had to contend with and whether it is has caused lasting damage.
The new cab sec said the issues, raised by Case in front of the same committee, were “not a good thing and certainly damaged some public perceptions”. But, he added, “I don't think it's done lasting damage”.
Wormald said he has seen throughout his career “a completely respectful relationship” in the “vast majority of cases”, focused on “achieving public good”, and that civil servants are largely able to raise issues when they need to. “It's one of the great strengths of our system, that shared sense of public spiritedness, regardless of background,” he said.
He added that there is “a very important distinction between people who criticise or attack the civil service, which I think we have to treat as fair game, just like any other institution” and “when it tips over into criticising civil servants who can't answer back by convention”.
“And I think Simon was completely right in what he said about those attacks,” he added.
Mission government = problem-focused civil servants
Asked about the new government’s mission approach, Wormald said the concept, in his mind, is all about "problem solving on behalf of the government and behalf of citizens".
"That is what we want people to have in their head when they work," he said. "Walk into a room not [thinking] I am from department x, here to defend policy y. It's what's the problem and how do we solve it?"
Wormald says he is starting to see this type of thinking spread across government and that he wants it to "imbue everything the civil service, and the government does".
“And when we talk about rewiring, that is what we need, that laser focus on: how do we solve the problem? How do you have to think differently across organisations in order to solve that problem? That's the heart of what we are trying to drive," he added.
Why silos are needed – but also need breaking
The cab sec was asked if the mission approach “breaks down silos”. Wormald said it does, but that silos can also be desirable.
“Sometimes in public services, you want to meet someone from a silo,” he said. “In my old world of health, if you have a medical condition, you wish to meet doctors and nurses who are absolute, dedicated specialists in that particular condition."
Wormald said the important thing, therefore, is "not to have no silos" but to "have that problem solving mentality".
"So does the problem that is in front of me require a multi-disciplinary approach people to work across boundaries to solve the problem, or does it need an expert in that very specific theme? And what we want is for people to think that way around. Start with the problem. Start with the individuals with problems you are trying to solve and build your answer around that, not from where you where you come from," he said.
Wormald said the Covid-19 vaccines programme was a great example of mission government in action, with "all parts of the public services, civil society, academia and the private sector, doing what they did best, and that fitting together into a huge number of jabs getting into arms".
"The interesting thing about it is there was no one guiding mind. It was a genuine mission in which all those people effectively got together to solve: what is the next problem?” he added.
Wormald said the government wants to apply this thinking to the wider problems of society – with “everyone bringing their best to the table”, not caring about which institution they come on, and being focused on how to solve “the next problem”.
Asked what the government had learnt from other countries on how to introduce a mission approach, Wormald said Japan’s approach to demographics challenges had stood out.
“Their starting question was not: 'how do I provide a service?'. It was: 'how are we going to reshape society for a new demographic?'. Now, as soon as that is your start in question, it drives you to some very different solutions...so I'm very, very interested in that,” Wormald said.
He also pointed to Singapore’s “very intense problem-solving approach” and its focus on how “technology is going to help me solve this problem right here”.
Two hats suits me: Wormald on his dual role
Wormald was also questioned on the ongoing debate about whether the cab sec and head of civil service roles should be held by one person. He said he likes the current model and that splitting the roles in the past has brought both advantages and problems.
Asked how he plans to balance both jobs, Wormald said his plan was to spend one third of his time on the head of civil service role and two thirds on cab sec duties, and that he has “so far, largely stuck to that”. But he said the caveat is that “quite frequently I am in meetings where I can't actually tell which of the two hats I am wearing”.
Wormald said a good example of this is discussions about how the government and the civil service can be more mission-focused.
“That is both a policy of the government and core cabinet secretary work, and is also clearly a civil service leadership thing.”
Wormald said he doesn’t “really spend time worrying” about which hat he is wearing in each discussion but that it is an argument for why linking to jobs is important, “because very frequently you can't tell”.
Restructuring the Cabinet Office and dividing responsibilities
Asked how he and Cat Little, the Cabinet Office permanent secretary and civil service chief operating officer, are dividing their responsibilities and driving cross-cutting work, Wormald said “the most important thing…by miles…is that we talk a lot,” and that her office is next to his.
He added that a lot of focus is going into ensuring “absolute clarity” about accountability amid a reconfiguration of the Cabinet Office under the new government.
He said the department is being split into “two halves and five blocks”.
“There is the work that the Cabinet Office does that directly faces the prime minister and Cabinet, obviously No.10; also the economic and domestic functions and the economic and domestic secretariat that is a bloc, the new bloc we have around Europe and global issues, the national security block; and the propriety and ethics block. Those are all the bits that directly face the prime Minister and the cabinet, and those report direct to me.
“And then there are the functions which report directly to Cat, which are about functional leadership, management of the civil service, crucial issues around how the state operates in terms of property, people and technology, and all the things that are about the running of the wider machine. “
Wormald said his aim is to have “absolute clarity” on this accountability structure and then “huge amount of discussion across the blocks” and “huge flexibility about how you actually work”.
Asked if there was any merit in calls for an Office of the Prime Minister, “properly resourced and focused on cross-cutting governmental delivery”, Wormald said the current rejig is “along those lines but also recognises the different way in which the UK system works, including having a Cabinet as the absolute centrepiece of it”.
Specialists and generalists
The committee also asked for Wormald’s thoughts on the specialist vs generalist debate and getting the right balance of the two in the civil service.
The cab sec said the civil service has “benefitted hugely” from the move towards professions and function and that he doesn’t “really like the word generalist”.
Wormald – who is a former head of the policy profession – said policy makers “should see themselves as a set of people with professional skills: frequently in analysis, also in the understanding of how democracy works, and also in how you make good policy for delivery”.
He said the ideal policy maker “sits at the nexus” of these three attributes and can bring them all together “into a successful public policy or advice”.
Great policymakers are also “both self confident and humble – they're self-confident enough to pick up the phone for that world expert opinion and humble enough to listen to the answer”, he said.
“As soon as you think of it like that, it is much easier see how the kinds of experts you describe and what used to be called generalists work together,” Wormald added.
Grade hierarchy
Asked about the hierarchical nature of the civil service and whether that is working effectively, Wormald said it is “difficult to say yes”. He said the civil service is “very hierarchical” and has found it very difficult to reduce the amount of grades, but that the government does want to make progress on this issue.
But, he added, the mission approach of “how people do their jobs and are they focused on solving the problem is for me, much more important than those structural questions”.